E-Sangha Watch
by Al
I’ve posted several times on the unfortunate way that E-Sangha, a popular Buddhist forum, is operated. It is run by a group of administrators and moderators who disallow open discussion of Buddhist ideas if these discussions run to interpretations with which the moderators disagree. This happens even when these disallowed interpretations are actually traditional views in specific traditions of Buddhism. They also have a policy of banning individuals from the forum if a moderator dislikes the tradition of practice of these individuals or if moderator decisions (or the sudden disappearance of discussion threads or individuals from the site) are discussed in public.
A number of months back, the Soto Zen forum was closed on E-Sangha after controversies surrounding the disagreement by E-Sangha moderators with Soto Zen interpretations of Buddhism. The cover story for this was that the forum data was corrupted during a site update but people on the Soto Zen forum at the time reported that it was because of ongoing disagreements with the moderators. Of course, since E-Sangha moderators routinely delete or hide entire message threads and ban users who mention missing threads, there is no way to “prove” any of this. At least one Soto Zen priest, Rev. Jundo Cohen, has apparently discussed opening a lawsuit against E-Sangha because of this activity. (I’m not entirely in agreement with making this a legal dispute but I understand why someone might attempt to resolve things that way given E-Sangha’s size and the way it draws in members of the online Buddhist community without letter people know how it treats individuals, especially those of certain Buddhist traditions.)
Generally speaking, only members of a number of Tibetan Vajrayana traditions seem to have a free hand in discussions on E-Sangha and, even then, if they go over certain doctrinal lines, moderators like “Namdrol” will suddenly make the discussions disappear or simply ban the users, often with no explanation since the messages explaining why one is banned are not accessible post-banning. This has happened to at least one friend of mine recently and happened to me before I was simply permanently banned from the site.
I’ve given up on expecting E-Sangha to change and have moved my online activities to more interesting and open spaces but I received an e-mail yesterday about a new site, E-Sangha Watch. I have no idea who is running this site, which is dedicated to monitoring the abuses on E-Sangha, and I have no connection to them. It seemed worth mentioning here since a Google Search on “E-Sangha” tends to bring a lot of people to my blog (one of my posts being the fourth link on a Google search for E-Sangha, just after the links to the site).
Feel free to take a look. I would ask that the site operators, if they read this post, identify themselves on the site. More openness or transparency will help people see E-Sangha Watch as something useful and, perhaps, reputable. As it is, I don’t know the entire motivations of those operating it but it does seem like they are doing the right thing at this point.
Comments
[...] posted on the continuing issues on E-Sangha the other day and the formation of the site, E-Sangha Watch. I [...]
The pictures are labeled now.
Thanks for the suggestions, Scott.
Does anyone know why the three Theravada moderators of E-sangha have all been fired? I mean Retrofuturist, Ben O'Loughlin and the monk Dhammanando.
Ciao, Barry B.
I have no idea of who is in that picture.
At least one person has claimed to me that the operator of the E-Sangha Watch site is Jundo Cohen.
Of course, the same person makes excuses for why the Soto Zen forum has been temporarily closed for months.
Ask and ye shall receive! I don't know who Chigpu is or what one is, but he doesn't appear to be the person I was thinking of, who ought to be too busy for that kind of thing anyway. Thanks!
Who's the guy in the picture second from the right? It looks sort of like a teacher I'm familiar with, but the picture doesn't show enough to be sure.
I think you're right about asking for more transparency. Nobody wants to be co-opted for a personal grudge, and the site doesn't tell one enough to know where it's coming from. I still think, though, that Buddhists should commit themselves to spending at least as much time meditating as they do posting to web sites and email lists!
W.B.
I use to frequent E-Sangha too but there got to be too many fights and I got tired of that sh*t.
Hey Al,
I get where you're coming from re: e-Sangha. Back in the day, when the web was still new, back before that stupid dog-sock-puppet was trying to get us to order dog food online, I spent a good amount of time in various Buddhist chatrooms, forums, etc. I never had a particularly good experience, and I haven't been inclined to venture back out. (What is it about forums, by the way, that bring out the worst in net culture? I don't see as much on blogs. I wonder, rhetorically, what the difference is?)
At any rate, your post got me thinking and then I found some other forums linked to from some other Buddhist blog. I have no idea about any of them, either in terms of usefulness or intelligence. But thought I'd post some links for your edification (or some other fancy, two-bit word!)
http://www.buddhachat.org/forum/index.php
http://dharmabratsforum.yuku.com/
http://dharmacore.ning.com/
I don't know why though I've heard about it.
E-sangha used to be a very constructive and supportive environment. Then in their well intentioned aspiration to promote and protect the integrity of the dharma, the moderators turned into fascists. I don't use that term fascist for effect. Their carry a big stick and are not unwilling to use it in the face of contradiction or ambiguity. On the one hand I appreciate their desire to not let e-sangha degenerate into the chaos that other forums eventually became (the old Tricycle forums as an example). At the same time, sensible moderation is miles away from dissecting individuals from the "virtual sangha" they wish to create for the mere act of embracing ideas or questioning the forum policies.
I haven’t read this post / comments in any detail but I did skim an old post here where Namdrol said that E-sangha would not ban people for starting new forums.
Turns out that E-sangha not only DOES ban people for starting/associating with new Buddhist sites (in addition to the noted record of banning people silently and systematically) but they also read personal messages on the site.
So basically if you are on their site KNOW THAT YOUR PMs ARE BEING MONITORED.
So people should know of these privacy violations. Doesn’t feel very Buddhist to me…
esanga moderators are subject to the same abusive treatment by admins as general members. admins frequently remind mods that esangha is an strict oligarchy, and that any concerns that a mod may have regarding an admin action or decision must be addressed privately with an admin (not in the mod forum) . the admin style of management is based on the total use of verbal abuse, secrets, lies, power-playing, and absolute power.
admins routinely:
- ignore the esanga terms of service rules, and ignore esanga’s formal moderator
decision-making process without announcement or explanation.
- delete and/or edit mod post without pre-discussion or explanation.
- overrule mods and delete threads that are in disagreement with the two head admin’s
unique understanding of buddhism.
- threaten mods in front of other mods – yell at mods in all caps in the mod forum
- strip mod status over dogma disagreements or for questioning admin behavior that is
inconsistent with forum rules
- routinely read mod pms and disclose their private contents in the mod forum.
- admins have issued a list of buddhist sites to mods that they are forbidden to post at,
under threat of being de-modded at esanga.
- mods are also managed by the point system – admins hand out warning points
without warning or explanation. same with suspension or banning. no warning
or explanation.
- One of the admins has a disgusting aggressive potty mouth when he’s posting in the mod forum and is mentally stable – paranoid and rageful.
- Another one of the admins throws megalomaniacal tantrums in which he claims
that anyone who disagrees with his understanding of Buddhism isn’t a Buddhist. He
also forbids that certain worlds be used when discussing Buddhism, at the threat of
banning. One word on the list that comes to mind is “fundamentalist”. He also
regularly issues new “rules” against things, shouting in all caps things like “XYZ IS NO
LONGER ALLOWED. I WON”T HAVE IT”.
this is just the very tip of the iceberg. esanga is always desperate for new mods because admins fire them so often. and because many won’t stand for being targeted by admins with abusive treatment. and some just get disgusted and quit. there are a few long-term mods that hang in there, despite the abuse, hoping that the two looniest admins will eventually leave.
So think about this the next time there’s a temptation to rant about the mods at esanga. Modding isn’t easy work, and it is all volunteer. esanga mods try to do their best to maintain an orderly environment, in spite of ugly abusive work conditions under two crazy admins, too many admin-issued dogma restrictions, and hundreds of newbies with attitude that they have to deal with all the time.
I won’t even touch on the profit issue.
Control complete! Or shut up?
Now, e-sangha have taken away the pm button for all members.
So, nobody can interact with anybody on the private message basis.(Or is it only me?)
Nobody can drop a mail to the mods to clarify a situation.
Easy work for the admins and mods, bad freedom for the rest of members?
People wake up, and protest the scheme!
Dave
E-Sangha is straight-up fascist. It’s really a shame, because there is so much good about it, but yet, it is run by a clique of control freaks.
I don’t know what the answer is, and I don’t know all the details.
What I do know is, the people who moderate and admin E-Sangha are out of touch with reality, and if you make them mad, or express views that they don’t agree with, or criticize one of the head honchos, they will use any excuse they can to erase your posts and eventually ban you.
Which is what recently happened to me.
I think there should be a warning site about E-Sangha, for anyone who is considering joining. I’m serious. It is simply not a place for open, free, or even intelligent discussion, that is unless you are willing to act subservient to moderators and admins who throw their weight around and have no qualms about showing you who’s in charge.
Again, extremely unfortunate. I just don’t get how some of the long-time users don’t see it.
I hope there’s some way to fix it. At this point I’m not interested in participating in what has been revealed to me to be an extremely authoritarian and close-minded system. I hope that some other site rises to take it’s place. Sad how power corrupts.
I agree e-sangha just sucks.
I searched on google “lioncity sucks” this and that etc.c.
Sorry, the place just sucks.
No one is enlightened there, so much thickheadedness. As opposed to online discussions I’ve read on dhammawheel which seem to have more common sense and be more light-headed.
It seems like everyone there is a vain hypocritical idiot, that pretend to be virtuos or wise or enlightened.
I would of thought that due to merits that lioncity would be enjoyable to be around.
But no, it’s worse than most forums. When you’re on it, you get the feeling that the place is frequented by pedophiles and creeps.
Agh, I had my posts deleted like 3 times.
The place just sucks.
Before I had the feeling that everyone would be enlightened in the world, e-sangha is exempted.
I used to be a mod there and got very bored with the place for several reasons so quit. Every time I’ve been back it’s only re-enforced my view that the place has severely degenerated from when it was actually useful when first set up.
Regarding the admins and Namdrol in particular – there is a view that ideas like ‘rebirth denial’ must be prevented from taking hold as a valid Buddhist position on the site. In their favour, this *is* the conventional Buddhist position. Take their actions and policy as you will. I prefer explanation rather than just banning questions etc.
I would say, however, that there is a lot of unproductive magical thinking and passive-agressiveness in that place. There can be some good information there, but I can’t help feeling that Buddhist ‘right speech’ isn’t held to.
If you go along with the party line on esangha then you will be allowed access. If however your tradition of Buddhism contradicts the party line, then you will be confronted by a “good” moderator. If you intelligently oppose the moderator, even while being respectful, then depending on what moderator feels threatened, one will be banned, suspended. the thread closed, or the thread removed entirely without discussion.
That is an underhanded way of winning an argument, while defending one’s status, authority, or position. Esangha is like a graveyard to those who won’t tow the party line. Of course one is always free to leave. That is the intent behind the banning. If you can’t be perverted/converted “then go away, you are not welcome on Esangha”. Who suffers really, are the wide eyed bushy tailed newbies, who are under the impression that they are learning something about Buddhism, while in fact they are learning something contrived and exploitive.
Be well.
I still like ‘mooning’ them once in awhile to see the warning meter fly.
It’s very invigorating.
I used to be on esangha, but as things were going I saw too many people getting hurt and banned. I realized that you could not question the teachings. I also had hurt feelings when dealing with certain moderators and quit. I am glad to see that the site is down, personally. Hacked? I question who could have hacked it. Not eSangha Watch but maybe those in fear of being sued. But that is just my own opinion and suspicions. This website was actually one of the things that turned me off to Buddhism, but I never really could connect anyway.